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title
The Awakening of Faith – Talk 24

October 26, 1984 Dharma Talk by Dainin Katagiri Roshi

Transcript

This transcript is in rough draft stage.

Listen to this talk

0:00

Katagiri Roshi: Page 44:

Because of its nonenlightened state, [the deluded mind] produces three aspects which are bound to nonenlightenment and are inseparable from it.

First is the activity of ignorance. The agitation of mind because of its nonenlightened state is called activity. When enlightened, it is unagitated. When it is agitated, anxiety (duhkha) follows, for the result (i.e., anxiety) is not independent of the cause (i.e., the agitation contingent upon ignorance).

Second is the perceiving subject. Because of the agitation [that breaks the original unity with suchness], there appears the perceiving subject. When unagitated, [the mind] is free from perceiving.

Third is the world of objects. Because of the perceiving subject, the world of objects erroneously appears. Apart from the perceiving, there will be no world of objects.

Conditioned by the [incorrectly conceived] world of objects, [the deluded mind] produces six aspects.

First is the aspect of the [discriminating] intellect. Depending on the [erroneously conceived] world of objects, the mind develops the discrimination between liking and disliking.

Second is the aspect of continuity. By virtue of [the discriminating function of] the intellect, the mind produces an awareness of pleasure and pain [with regard to things] in the world of objects. The mind, developing [deluded] thoughts and being bound to them, will continue uninterrupted.

Third is the aspect of attachment. Because of the continuity [of deluded thoughts], the mind, superimposing its deluded thoughts on the world of objects and holding fast to [the discriminations of liking and disliking] develops attachments [to what it likes].

Fourth is the aspect of the speculation (vikalpa) on names and letters (i.e., concepts). On the basis of erroneous attachments, [the deluded mind) analyzes words which are provisional [and therefore devoid of validity].

Fifth is the aspect of giving rise to [evil] karma. Relying on names and letters (i.e., concepts that have no validity), [the deluded mind] investigates names and words and becomes attached to them, and creates manifold types of evil karma.

Sixth is the aspect of anxiety attached to the [effects of evil] karma. Because of the [law of] karma, the deluded mind suffers the effects and will not be free.

It should be understood that ignorance is able to produce all types of defiled states; all defiled states are aspects of nonenlightenment.

(From The Awakening of Faith, translated by Yoshito S. Hakeda, 1967.)

Nonenlightenment, briefly speaking, is classified into two. One is primary unenlightenment. Second is ensuing unenlightenment.

Primary [un]enlightenment is very subtle and very delicate consciousness which corresponds to alayavijnana. And on the other hand, ensuing unenlightenment corresponds [to] discriminating consciousness. Briefly speaking, the usual consciousness.

Let's review what we learned last Friday. Last Friday, on page 43, I explained what the primary [un]enlightenment is like. This is the point which we learned last Friday. So, primary unenlightenment, or we can say primary ignorance, because unenlightenment is nothing but the activity of consciousness or cognitive activities. So, cognitive activity or the activity of consciousness is already something defiled. So, this is ignorance, already.

So, the mind [starting] in an unenlightened condition is blind or ignorant in contrast with the true nature of mind.

There are two points from page 43. One point is ... the ignorance, unenlightenment, doesn't have its own substance. This is one point. We don't know from where ignorance comes. In other words, it is impossible for us to trace back to the origin of ignorance in terms of time process. It's impossible, because it doesn't have the substantiality of its own. That is one point.

The second point: and yet, the ignorance is always based on or depend[s] on enlightenment. So, root of ignorance is enlightenment. Enlightenment and the ignorance are related very closely. But ignorance itself doesn't have its own substance. That is the point.

So, in other words, ignorance already exists. But we don't know where it is. But when the time is ripe, conditions are arranged, ignorance appears. Because it doesn't have its own substance, it exists from all eternity. This is the characteristic of ignorance.

And also it means that it has no validity to be substantiated. But it is not independent of the original enlightenment.

But in this book, [it] says that if we are free from original enlightenment, we can be free from the unenlightenment. This book takes the example of directions. If you have idea of direction, and then very naturally you have some problem. If you make mistake, if you walk toward east, which is not the right course, that time you have some problem with that directions. Because we have already idea of directions. So, if you are free from directions, wherever you walk, no problem. So, same applies to relation between enlightenment or unenlightenment. If you are free from enlightenment, very naturally you are free from unenlightenment.

For instance, in Shobogenzo “Life and Death,” Dogon Zenji [talks about] the message of Kassan and Jōzan Zen Masters. It says, “Since there is a buddha within life and death, there is no life and death.” That means, the life and death is always depending on the Buddha, so-called enlightenment. But at that time, it says there is no life and death. Because the enlightenment or buddha-nature always there, and within the domain of buddha-nature, life and death operates constantly. But if we say so, we attach to idea of buddha-nature, which makes us a problem. We can get into the problem because we attach to the idea of enlightenment or buddha-nature. Saying, well, if the life and death always depends on buddha-nature or enlightenment, why is it we have to practice zazen? Because we are already buddha-nature. So, we completely misunderstand life and death. In other words, we take life and death for buddha-nature. So we messed up. That is a problem, that's why we have to do something for that, because we misunderstand.

So, that's why next Dogon Zenji says, “Since there is no buddha within life and death, one is not deluded by life and death.” Because if you are free from idea of buddha-nature, I think life and death becomes life and death as it is. So you can deal with life and death as it is. So no problem.

In other words, when you graduate from university and get a PhD, and if you are completely free from PhD, well, no problem, because you can join [as a] member of society and help people as usual. But if you attach to the title, so called PhD, you are really caught by PhDs. Well if you get... but actually there is a PhD and master degrees and bachelor degrees and high school and graduate schools, there are differentiations. So we have to go step by step. But on the other hand, if you attach to this degree, well it's pretty difficult to join the human society and help the people completely as usual, forgetting the title, without arrogance. So very naturally you have to be free from that title.

That's why here it says [that] ignorance doesn't have its own substance. So life and death, practically speaking, doesn't have its own substance. So if you don't touch it, it doesn't appear. But if you attach to it, it appears. When time is ripe, conditions arranged, it appears.

So, life and death is just like a [??]. But on the other hand, it depends on, anyway, enlightenment, very closely.

That's why life and death or ignorance are not always something wrong. So if you realize very deeply, it's completely turned over, a completely different way. And then, buddha-nature appears. But buddha-nature, or the life and death, are also a cause of trouble for us. Because we are pretty easily caught by. So we have to be free from enlightenment or unenlightenment. This is freedom. That's why, Dogen Zenji mentions in the beginning of the chapter of “Life and Death,” “Since there is a buddha within life and death, there is no life and death. So since there is no Buddha within life and death, one is not deluded by life and death.”

So today, the ensuing unenlightenment... or, what would you say, subsequent unenlightenment? Ensuing unenlightenment is the fruit of the activity of primary enlightenment. Ensuing enlightenment indicates the explanation of how primarily enlightenment operates. The structure of giving rise to the deluded thoughts. In other words, the structure, the ensuing unenlightenment is indication of how to operate the primary unenlightenment. In other words, how does alayavijnana operate in concrete way, in our everyday life.

So, first, there are three aspects which are bound to unenlightenment. One is activity of ignorance, second, the perceiving subject, third, the world of objects. This is the structure of alayavijnana. So we call the three aspects which are bound to. So, this is nothing but the explanation of the theoretical structure of the alayavijnana, or the explanation of how the mind issues forth from ignorance in the time process. Time process means from moment to moment. Or, this is the indication of the structure of our alayavijnana, I mentioned before.

Question: Hojo-san?

Katagiri Roshi: Hai.

Question: You're saying that ensuing unenlightenment... the pattern of ensuing unenlightenment explains the pattern of primary unenlightenment?

Katagiri Roshi: Yeah.

Primary enlightenment corresponds to the alayavijnana. Ensuing unenlightenment corresponds to the discriminating consciousness, or usual idea of consciousnesses.

That's primary enlightenment. Primary enlightenment is alayavijnana, the very basic, basic. According to Buddhist psychology, that is the eight consciousness. We have eight consciousnesses in Buddhist psychology: five consciousnesses and also the sixth consciousness, and seventh consciousness, and eighth consciousness. Eighth consciousness is subconsciousness. We call alayavijnana.

In this book, the two technical terms are tathagatagarbha, that means the human consciousness is seen in terms of the truth. At that time, consciousness is quite different from our understanding, because human consciousness is not bad, because inside of the consciousness there is buddha-nature. So we call it tathagatagarbha. Garbha means the womb, embryo. So buddha-nature, the embryo... We have already embryo as a buddha. That is human consciousness in terms of the truth.

So that is the real state of human consciousness. But we don't know what the tathagatagarbha is. But we want to know what the tathagatagarbha is, that's why we have to see human consciousness in concrete way. So when the tathagatagarbha is seen in terms of the level of human consciousness – analyzing, synthesizing, what it is – in that time human consciousness is called alayavijnana. [...] So alayavijnana is structure of how tathagatagarbha operates in the concrete aspect of human life. Understanding. At that time human consciousness is called alayavijnana.

So the alayavijnana is the idea of human consciousness in terms of time process. But in terms of spatial dimension, human consciousness is called tathagatagarbha. So a little different concept there.

So now we are studying the alayavijnana.

27:42

So let's [look at] number one [on] page 44.

First is the activity of ignorance. The agitation of mind because of its nonenlightened state is called activity. When enlightened, it is unagitated. When it is agitated, anxiety (duhkha) ...

... [for “duhkha,”] usually we say “suffering,” “anxiety,” or “ill” ...

... follows, for the result is not independent of the cause.

So the activity of three aspects... excuse me... three aspects of which are bound to nonenlightenment and also six aspects of the deluded thoughts. Those are called the ensuing unenlightenment.

So first, the activity of ignorance.

Ignorance means in this case that which it agitates, in other words, it vibrates. At that time it is called ignorance. When the mind is vibrated. Mind means when alayavijnana is agitated or vibrated, it is called ignorance. But this book doesn't explain in detail how, why the alayavijnana as a basic consciousness starts to move. It doesn’t explain [...] but on the other hand in the merely consciousness, the Buddhist psychology, Vijñānavāda or the Yogachara Buddhism explains in detail about that. But this book doesn't say in detail. But there is a question: How? Because there is a contradiction, because alayavijnana as a basic, it is an absolute, or truth. So why, how absolute move? Why absolute gives rise to movement or agitation? By what? Many questions come up. But anyway, according to this book, also mentions the ignorance means the time when the alayavijnana is vibrated or agitated. At that time it is ignorance.

So alayavijnana, in a deep sense alayavijnana is always moving, but it doesn't appear on the surface of human consciousness, usual human consciousness. Well, we have to explain this one, but I don't want to involve in detail. Maybe next time we can say a particular technical term according to Buddhist psychology, we say parinama in Sanskrit, that means transformation. How alayavijnana transforms into usual human consciousness. Alayavijnana is very basic consciousness, which is the truth, and also which is very closely related with human consciousness. So how it turns into human consciousness? By what? Who creates agitation or vibration of alayavijnana? This is always many questions. In other words, who create human beings? Who creates all sentient beings? This is always an interesting question. That's why religion always researches about them. But anyway, this is an interesting point, but basically, simply speaking, you can think alayavijnana in a deep sense is moving constantly, but it is not ripe exactly, enough to appear on the surface. But on the basis, always it’s moving. But that movement is very still, quiet. But when the time is ripe, conditions arranged it appears. It appears as consciousness.

So who did it? That is so-called ignorance, we say. Ignorance is conditions. We say conditions. Because when something is there, it should have its own cause. Because something which has appeared is result – that's why it must have its own cause. So very naturally we want to know what it is, who did it. But anyway, this is first activity of ignorance.

So in this case, the agitation or vibration of consciousness is same meaning as dichotomy of consciousness. So that's why it is called agitation of the mind is called ignorance or vibration. So from this point, the activity of ignorance is the cause and [...] the existence of [suffering] is effect. So very naturally when the mind is vibrated that is the cause, which is good enough to bring up human suffering, as effect.

So when enlightened, it is unagitated. So if you research very deeply the ignorance, origin of the ignorance is mind is you can see the state of the mind which is not agitated. Strictly speaking, mind in the depth of the mind is moving, but it is very still. Very still because at super-speed it is moving. But when it appears, that movement which is very still, moving at the super-speed, creating something. We don't know what it is, because it is moving at super-speed. That is what makes it possible to create. That is the cause of creation is conditions. We call conditions. Many conditions.

And then, when it creates something, it is called the human world. Samsara. Then trees, birds, many beings exist.

At that time, it is already ignorant world, the deluded world.

But ignorant world doesn’t have its own substance. That’s why when you realize it very deeply, you can see the stable condition of human consciousness. You can see the depth of consciousness.

That is called, I say, silence, or absolute. We say so.

So, the activity of ignorance is process of these three aspects, which are bound to nonenlightenment. Process of how alayavijnana works. Process. So first of all we have a kind of actions, always. Before you are conscious of, anyway, there is some movement, always. And on the basis of your life, movement. Connected with the circumstances or world, [it moves]. Regardless of whether you are conscious of it, or you like or dislike, anyway, there is a movement.

So that is that movement is going by your effort? Maybe so, but something more than by your effort. It’s already going. So that is activity of ignorance. Many conditions there. Coming from the beginningless past. Anyway, when the time is ripe, conditions arranged, that you can see the movement-activity of your life.

So that is activity of ignorance. And then you can create the world of subject, which you can perceive. This is the first stage of subject. The first one, the activity of ignorance, is the first stage of agitated mind. Agitated alayavijnana, very first stage. Very first. You don't know what it is, but it’s moving. That is called the activity of ignorance.

So basically, your basic nature of human life is nothing but movement of existence. And then, you can create subject. What you can perceive. That subject is also not idea of subject you can understand in common sense. But because it is very first stage of perceiving subject. In other words, first moment when you are born and in your mother’s womb. That moment, first moment. Something like this. So that is the subject, we say here [...] Perceiving subject.

So perceiving subject because of the agitation...

[Tape break.]

... you can see the subject. Subject comes into existence. Which you can perceive. So there appears the perceiving subject. When unagitated, the mind is free from perceiving. Because when unagitated means the very first stage, very first stage, of giving rise to the subject, perceiving subject. So it is the idea of subject before you are conscious of it. This is the first stage of subject. That’s why when unagitated. When the mind is agitated, there is very naturally idea of subject you can grasp. But before that. Well, there is subject, but it is nothing but image of subject through inference. But inference is also related very closely with present. So inference is important for us. Through the inference, we can see something. But is that something through the inference is related very closely with present life. So that’s why it is important too.

So that is perceiving subject.

Third is the world of objects. Next, you can see, if you have subject, very naturally the object comes into existence. Automatically.

So because of the perceiving subject, the world of object erroneously appears, because when the object comes into existence, that means agitation movement or activity of subject. That is called object. Alright? When object appears that means already mind is agitated, moved.

So in other words, the existence of your eyes as a subject. When your eyes don't operate, you cannot say existence of eyes as a subject. So only when eyes function, at that time you can accept existence [of] eyes as a subject. Without function, you cannot recognize subject. So function of the eye and subject of the eye [are] related very closely, interconnected.

So when the eyes function, very naturally eyes as a subject exist, and you get its own object. Automatically. So subject and object are functioning, connected. By interpenetration interconnections of three: function and subject and object. And then, you can have an idea which is called subject, or object. And then, idea of function.

So each of them doesn’t exist separately. So each of them doesn’t have its own substance. But each of them exists exactly by interdependent co-origination, among three of them: subject, object, functions. Just like a school teacher and student. Sangha, and teacher, and student, we can say. But each of them doesn’t have its own substance.

But we say there is a student. [That] means, what seems to be separated from others, but I don't think. Because each of them, each of you, doesn’t have his own substance. So you can go anyplace. So [if] you go out of the sangha, people don't call you “you are a member of the sangha.” No. You become very usual human beings. But if people call you, “you are a member of human society,” only when you are connected with the sangha, teacher. And then you are called student of the sangha. But next moment it disappears.

So, the world of object appears very naturally, automatically. But this object is also the first stage of giving rise to object. That's why here it says, “because of the perceiving subject the word of object erroneously appears.” Because it is already subject moves, already. That means subject exists in a dualistic sense. Dualistic world. It’s already moved.

So, “Apart from the perceiving, there will be no world of objects.” So, if subject doesn't work, no object. So only subject works, object comes up. So it means, while you can see the object, that means [...] you are alive. When you sit down and you cannot see anything, at that time your life doesn't make sense. So when you do that zazen, and then becoming one, and nothing to see as object, it doesn't make sense. So, while you can see the object, at that time function comes up. Zazen is constantly working. So that is called object, and subject. But when you become one with zazen, then, no object or subject. If there is no object, very naturally no subject. So that is samadhi. But it’s working, but it’s very basic nature, very basic nature of activities. So you cannot see it. That is called oneness, samadhi. Exactly. But when your mind moves or vibrates even slightly, then you can see zazen and you, very naturally. That is dichotomy, or subject and object.

51:34

Conditioned by the [incorrectly conceived] world of objects, [the deluded mind] produces six aspects.

So next, [six aspects] of consciousness conditioned by the incorrect[ly] conceived world of object. There appears six aspects.

One is aspect of intellect.

Second, aspect of continuity.

The third, aspect of attachment.

Fourth, subject of speculation on names and letters.

Fifth, the aspect of giving rise to karma.

Sixth, the aspect of anxiety attached to the karma.

These six are indication of the process of discriminating consciousness, exactly process.

So the order of these names are very important, because it is a process of consciousness. How it works, how consciousness works.

53:18

First [is] the aspect of intellect. It says,

Depending on the [erroneously conceived] world of objects, the mind develops the discrimination between liking and disliking.

The aspect of intellect. This is not only the intellect, or reasoning. But also it is the very practical alternative of liking and disliking. But liking and the alternative of liking and disliking doesn't appear after your experience. But, alternative of liking and disliking comes from the capability of your life. In other words, personality. Personality and character has already enough capability to create alternative of liking or disliking. But usually liking and disliking appears after we believe, after experience. In other words, after recognition of the object, and then we can create the alternative of liking or disliking. That is the common sense. But in this case, first of all, consciousness exactly exists as a whole. Your consciousness exactly exists. But that consciousness appears something particular. Roger’s consciousness, Katagiri’s consciousness, already. But on the basis of existence, consciousness is all, one, so-called alayavijnana. But when alayavijnana moves, and then alayavijnana appears individual [consciousness]. That is discriminating consciousness, so-called Roger’s and Katagiri’s, many kinds of [...].

But at that time, contents of the individual consciousness has already the great capacity, capability to make a choice of affective preferences, liking or disliking. Before you experience something.

That’s is why first, this author brings up this aspect of intellect. So intellect is not merely intellect. It is something more than intellect. Very [practically]. So we accept consciousness as a whole, before you evaluate your consciousness. Consciousness exists exactly, connected with your past, present and future. That means content or quality of your consciousness. That is called aspect of intellect.

So even though you try to destroy consciousness, it’s impossible to destroy. Because that is the aspect of intellect. So practically, very naturally, [...] automatically, you will have practical alternative of liking or disliking. Very naturally.

58:00

Second, aspect of continuity. Page 45:

Second is the aspect of continuity. By virtue of the intellect, the mind produces an awareness of pleasure and pain in the world of objects. The mind, developing thoughts and being bound to them, will continue uninterrupted.

Okay. The aspect of conditions. Next, there is consciousness at the second step of the process, second process of consciousness. That is continuance.

So consciousness is not something you can control. There is already the stream of the consciousness which is always moving. That is aspect, that is continuity there. So consciousness constantly working.

So in this case, the clear cognition of an object ensues from discrimination of liking and disliking, or an awareness of pleasure and pain.

For instance, [...] when you walk in the countryside and see something [on the path], see a kind of rope, but you take it for a snake and immediately you step back. You step back first from that rope, regarded as a snake, and then, the accurate recognition is taken on it. So before you have accurate cognition, you already have continuity of consciousness. So, usually we think, when you jump up, we believe we recognize the rope, misunderstood as a snake. In other words, we believe that there is accurate cognition. And then we jump up. I don't think, it [ought to be] reversed. We jump up, and then we can see, “Oh, it's not a snake, it's a rope.” It means already there is continuity of consciousness.

Or, when you walk out alone on a desolate mountain path at night, we feel always fear, even though there can be no clear object around. You cannot see any particular object around, but when you walk alone, you feel always fear. Means, you don't have accurate cognitions, because no particular object, but you feel always fear. It means, there is continuation of continuity of consciousness, before you recognize accurately something as object. That is second. First, there is consciousness as whole, connected with the past, present, future. This is intellect. Or, [unintelligible]. Practically it works, connected with present world as object.

Second, there is continuity of [consciousness]. That intellect, as a consciousness, is moving continuously, before you recognize accurately something as object. Wherever you make go, consciousness is going. That's why you feel fear, or you feel good, you feel great, et cetera.

So, it doesn't mean that process of cognition gives rise to alternative after the accurate recognition on an object, but that situation of subject gets ready to accept the object [at your own] convenience prior to cognition. Okay?

So, prior to cognition, the state of your life as a subject already gets ready to accept object at your own convenience. That is situation, that is continuity of your consciousness.

And one more point this continuity of consciousness has is, your experiences will carry on in the form of memories. When you experience something, and then continuity of consciousness stores your experience as a memory. This is the function of continuity of consciousness.

So, under all circumstances, consciousness is working constantly and stores your experience as a memory, in the form of memories.

1:06:34

Third is the aspect of attachment. Because of the continuity of consciousness, the mind, superimposing its deluded thoughts on the world of objects and holding fast to, develops attachments to.

(Transcriber’s Note: This is a little different from the sentence in the book. For example, Katagiri Roshi says “continuity of consciousness” instead of “continuity [of deluded thoughts]”.)

So, next, the aspect of attachment is accurate cognition, you experience accurate cognition. After jumping up, and then you can have accurate cognition on your object. And then next, you can attach to it. So-called, “ah, this is a rope.” And then, if it is rope, you don't create any suffering. So you can leave it; you pass by. But when you see the snake, actually, you don't feel good, so you jump up, or you feel fear.

So that's why, [...] through the superimposing or retention of object, or through the recollection of the object. In other words, you can have accurate cognition on object. And the succession of your consciousness. There arises a desire of attachment, so very naturally, the next step, you can create attachment. That is third.

1:08:57

Fourth is the aspect of the speculation (vikalpa) on names and letters (i.e., concepts). On the basis of erroneous attachments, [the deluded mind) analyzes words which are provisional [and therefore devoid of validity].

The fourth, aspect of speculation on names and letters. That means to give definition to all things, which we have recognized erroneously. So, using the names, using the ideas, concepts, and then you can give definition to your object.

Or this, the aspect of speculation on names or letter, means, to understand and judge the object. And then there are sensations of greed, anger, arrogance, doubt, ignorance, and wrong views, involved with thinking and judgment. Thinking and judgment basically, very simple functions. But, our judgment and thinking are a little bit complicated, because judgment and thinking operate in the human society. Surrounded by pros and cons, success and failure, et cetera. So thinking and judgment is not operating in a simple way. So, our thinking and judgment always going with the greed, anger, arrogance, doubt. Doubt means we don't believe exactly [that] our life continues from past, present, future – or, the law of causation, we don't believe exactly. Because we are always interested in present life. So that is a doubt.

So, many things, greed, anger, ignorance, doubt, and arrogance, and wrong views. Because you attach to your object. So, that's why, it means that all things are considered, or understood, or judged, in relation with those deluded thoughts, so definitions and the objects do not fit each other. So, even though you use a certain concept in order to understand, so-called this table, “this is a table,” this is idea, you know, using the concept, and then we say, “this is a table.” And then we understand this desk, we understand this. But strictly speaking, there are many different kinds of a desk, in size, in length. So, no same pattern of the desk. Even though you create two [of the] same desks, strictly speaking, they are different.

So, we give a definition to this variety of a desk by using a given idea or concept, and then we call [that] desk. But that desk doesn't fit exactly to this, because the concept is very general. We get use of that concept, through which we can understand. But actually that concept doesn't fit exactly to this desk which exists from moment to moment, no. So, that's why definitions and some objects doesn't fit.

So, very naturally, through the idea, you understand the desk, but idea, names and letters, nothing but provisional beings. Temporarily we can use, you know, ideas, and names and letters, and then we understand the object. But idea or concept doesn't fit exactly, because so many different kinds of beings, desks exist. So, the consciousness never understands desk which exists right now, right here, exactly now. Because we understand desk through the concept, words, letters. So that's why we say, we understand the desk through consciousness. But the desk which you have understood, through the desk, is nothing but provisional beings. Because your understanding doesn't fit to the desk which exists from moment to moment, exactly. So, that is perverted view, perverted understanding. But we get use of understanding object and subject through the words, exactly.

So, communication of human beings is what? You can have a communication with concept, words, letters. That’s it. That is communication of human society. And then we [develop], we shake hands. That's why, right in the middle of shaking hands, friends, we fight.

That is the fourth, and then, that's why fifth, aspect of giving rise to karma. Then you can create your own karma. That is the next step.

And then, sixth, we say aspect of anxiety attached to the karma, [that] means you suffer from the shackles. Because you understand the desk and the people through the words and letters, and have a communication through the words and letters. And then attach, believing [those] shackles. Then you suffer from. Because friendliness, you know, as a concept, doesn't fit to the Rogers I am looking at, I want to communicate with. But I use concept and words, so-called kindness. Then i shake hands with him. But it doesn't fit to this actual situation.

And then next moment, situation completely different, perverted. So anger comes up. That’s shackles, immediately. So friendliness, what is real friendliness? We don't know. So that friendliness we believe is really shaky, really shaky.

So that's a [provision]. And that's why to suffer from shackles means you cannot be free from subject and object, you cannot be free from. So you cannot be free from subject and object, that is called suffering from shackles.

1:18:21 end of recording


This talk was transcribed by Kikan Michael Howard. Audio recordings of Katagiri Roshi are being used with permission of Minnesota Zen Meditation Center.