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The Awakening of Faith – Talk 12: Tathagatagarbha |
This transcript is in rough draft stage.
Katagiri Roshi: Page 36.
Yesterday, I mentioned a little bit in Chosan, I would like to [explain] a little more about the statement, “the mind as phenomena (samsara) is is grounded on the tathagatagarbha.”
I think most people have big doubt how the truth relates with the samsaric world. [It is] very difficult to figure out the relationship, how truth comes into the samsaric world. What is the subject which samsara is produced? How samsaric world is produced? It’s very difficult to understand. But we want to know. We want to know.
For me, for many, many years, I really wanted to fill up that gap between the truth and the samsaric world. Because that is a most interesting point for me. But practically speaking, I don't think, even though you understand intellectually, it doesn't work actually. But practically speaking, all you have to do is to take care of everyday life with wholeheartedness. That's all we have to do. So, [practicing simply]. Still the intellectual sense [isn't satisfied]. So, practice, actual practice becomes a little bit shaky. We don't understand why we have to practice [in this] simple way. Why we have to do gassho, why we have to do the daily routine [of everyday life]. Why is it that [...] we have to take care of daily routine, because it is important. We don't understand this.
But no matter how long we try to explain this, well, it’s very difficult for me to explain, because most people don't experience what the truth is, and they don't experience strongly from daily routine how important it is. So, it’s pretty hard. So, teachers and ancestors, very naturally, a little bit force you to do: “Even though you don't understand it, please follow the ancestors' suggestions” – [like this].
For instance, if you want to be a barber shop barber, you have to follow the teacher's way, because you have never experienced. So, you should just follow the teacher's way, and then, you become a barber. But, if we do it in that way, it is fine in a sense, but it is not fine in a sense, because your practice doesn’t satisfy with your life. So, lots of questions come up.
So, that's why, very naturally, this kind of book is established. So, today [...] I would like to [talk] about this.
Yesterday, I mentioned the tathagatagarbha is not the same as the truth itself. The truth is exactly truth. So, I think we have learned before... look at page 32, “The Mind in Terms of the Absolute”. [...] This section explains the absolute. So, first point, you should understand the truth like this. The first line,
The mind in terms of the absolute is the one world of reality and the essence of all phases of existence in their totality.
What does it mean? This means... look at page 33, the fourth line from the bottom of the first paragraph. It says,
... nor is there anything which needs to be pointed out as real, for all things are equally in the state of suchness. It should be understood that all things are incapable of being verbally explained or thought of; hence, the name suchness.
So, the first point is that the truth is the one world of reality, exactly one world of reality, and the essence of all phases of existence in their totality. That means, [...] no need to point out what is the truth, or no need to explain what the truth is, because [it is] always there. So, no need to be pointed out as real or not as real. It’s not necessary, because it’s there, always.
That means absolute is omnipresent as a one, one world. And that means you can see this one world, but it’s very difficult to see this one world, so-called truth.
If so, how can we see the one world as the truth? That is, the truth manifested in everything. So, [it] means the truth in dwelling in all sentient beings. That's why here it says, "All things, it’s not necessary to be pointed out as real, because all things are equally in the state of suchness." Because truth, one world as truth, is omnipresent. Omnipresent means you can see the truth in everything. You are in contact with heaven, book, whatever it is. That is the meaning of omnipresent.
So, you should remember this one, ok? That is the first point.
The second point is, the truth is... look at the page 32, the third line from the bottom,
That which is called “the essential nature of the Mind” is unborn and is imperishable.
And then later, that this characteristic of the absolute will be explained in many ways, from a different angle. It's not the one, it's not the different, et cetera. It's not long, it's not wide... anyway, they explain it here in page 33.
Anyway, so, the characteristic of the truth is something unborn. After the world was born and then the truth comes – or, somebody was born in this world and then he brings that truth into human world – I don't think this is the truth. Even though nothing in this world [...] truth, always. So, it's not something coming from one place to another, two minutes ago or two minutes later. No. That is called not born.
So, completely beyond born or unborn. It's always there. Because that is [one]; it’s not necessary to be pointed out as real.
And imperishable means completely regardless of whether you believe in or not. Or, you try to take it away or you try to hold on. Nothing to do. [Whether] you believe or not, it's there. Or, it is not something you can throw away. Or, it is not something you can participate in from now. Or, it is not something from which you can escape. Or, which you can get into now. No.
So, this is the truth. This is called unborn and imperishable. This is the characteristic of the truth.
So, that's why it's pretty hard to know. But, this is called one mind, sometimes, because it's very simple. Because everyone, all sentient beings, exist just like this, on the basis of this absolute truth. So, that's why we say one mind.
One mind means completely beyond your speculations, before you think it, there is one world.
So, that is the truth. But, it is very difficult, that's why, if it is very difficult to know that one world, is there no place? No way to know? Yes, there is! That is the truth manifested in everyday life, human beings, birds, nature, in gassho, and having a meal, getting up in the morning, daily routine, whatever you do, always there is the truth. And that's why here it mentions like this. So you should remember this.
So, from this point, do you believe that this kind of a truth can create samsaric world? In other words, by the activity of this truth, absolute truth, do you believe samsaric world is produced, or created?
No. Because absolute truth has nothing to do. It doesn’t do anything; just be there. Because unborn, imperishable. Nothing.
That’s why, I forgot the Western philosopher’s name... Kierkegaard? [The students pronounce ‘Kierkegaard’, and he laughs.] Yes. He says, “No God.” “No God” doesn’t mean destroy or ignore God. He knows [what] real God is, that’s nothing. Buddha doesn’t do anything. But Buddha is constantly there. So, that’s why if we say, “No God,” we are really [mad] at this philosopher, but I don’t think it’s negative. And absolute is nothing to do for you – that doesn’t mean ignoring your existence. That means, completely beyond your speculation, the absolute is always with you. “Before you think, absolute creates samsara” – that is already speculation! Or, “absolute with me, now,” that is also speculation. But before you say so, before you say, [...] any words like this, “absolute with me now,” it is already words. Absolute is already with you, anyway, constantly. So that’s why unborn, imperishable.
So from this point, it’s impossible for us to understand, even philosophically, that absolute creates samsara. No. Samsara [as the] absolute is very quiet, dynamical, omnipresent, but – it doesn’t do anything, just be there. Maintain it’s own life. Just maintaining.
That is the truth. If so, you cannot say truth creates samsara. But some Buddhist scholars understood by the activity of the absolute truth, samsaric world is created through this. But that is a little bit misunderstanding.
So, if so, that’s why this course, anyway, find out another category, so-called tathagatagarbha. Tathagatagarbha is very interesting teaching. In terms of general Buddhism, this idea is very important. If you understand the idea of tathagatagarbha, I think you can taste a little bit the meaning of Shobogenzo, the meaning of time-being, mentioned by Dogen himself. You can see a little bit.
So, tathagatagarbha. That’s why this discourse brings up another term, so-called tathagatagarbha. So, tathagatagarbha is the truth dwelling in... us. And “all beings”. Not abstracted. Not abstracted idea of the principle or action – no. Tathagatagarbha is the very important ground of life. So, not abstract, an idea.
So, in Buddhism – you should remember this one. Buddhism doesn’t investigate process, the process of how truth comes to [or] joins the samsara, or samsara joins to the truth. Not process of. That is the philosophy we say, intellectually we say. If you move from A to B, you say, where is the A, where is the B? Now, what is the A, what is the B? Then how can you move to B? Et cetera. This is our understanding, intellectual [...]. But Buddhism doesn’t explain anything in that way. Buddhism accepts [...] real reality as it is, right now, right here.
In other words, we have to see the interacting relations, among the many conditions, in terms of the reality as it is, which is constantly arising. Not the process of how to arise, how to move.
So, Buddhism, anyway, jumps into the reality as it is, and then, learn how it is structured.
That’s why daily routine is very important. In terms of our sense of human body, daily routine is a small detail for us. But a daily routine is not different from professional job you have. Practicing is not different from a Himalaya Mountain. So, I think that you have to understand the practice as it is, practice is in reality as it is, instead of a certain investigate process of how to create [these practices]. Why? The reason why it is so small, in comparison with Himalaya Mountain itself. This is our intellectual system. But that is a philosophy; you can build up big mansions, so-called philosophy, psychology, etc. But Buddhism always participates directly first, reality as it is. And then research, investigate, understand the structure of that reality. Among the many conditions. Because there are many conditions there. Cause, secondary cause, first cause – many, many conditions. So, that is the Buddhistic attitude always.
So, from this attitude, this term comes up, so called tathagatagarbha. Because if you look at yourself, you cannot analyze your reality, from where it comes, what kind of characteristics you have. You cannot judge yourself on the basis of one-sided idea, so-called “good boy” or “bad boy”. You cannot do it. So, if you look at yourself in reality as it is, I think you have always two things. Samsaric world, and also something more than samsaric world.
So, samsaric world is suffering, but more than suffering. There is some important thing, more than samsaric world you really hate. Because no matter how long you hate or you try to escape, still your existence goes on and on, wherever you may go. So, what do you mean? In terms of samsaric world, you are judged as a bad boy? If so, that’s it? That is your life? No. Even though, in terms of samsaric world, someone judges your life as bad, but still you can survive, you can go any place. Your life goes on and on, next. If so, there is something in your life more than a sense of judgment, evaluation, more than the samsaric world. That is called truth, et cetera. Truth which you find in life.
But this truth, if found in your life, is not actual truth. This is your truth. This is the truth you can find in your life.
The problem is that people believe that truth, dwelling in individual life, is real truth, as one-world. That’s why we fight, you know? You find the truth in your life is, that’s limited understanding of truth, through your life. So, you should still take lots of time to refine this understanding of the truth found in your life. Philosophically, psychologically, religiously, whatever it is, you have to find it, and polish and refine, until it becomes one world. Until you become living in peace and harmony with all sentient beings, you should continually refine the understanding of the truth, understanding of the universe.
But usually people always believe that understanding of the universe or the truth, which seems to be the truth. But it’s not. If you do it, it becomes a cause of problems. That’s why in the human world always fighting.
And also, you can find the truth in others’ life, too. You can find the truth in the tables, you can find the truth in nature. [...]
So, that truth is called tathagatagarbha because that truth is found in everything, and simultaneously it is limited by individual life. That’s why the truth [is veiled] in delusion, we say so. That is called tathagatagarbha.
That tathagatagarbha is your life in reality as it is. If you look at it directly, your life.
Okay. So far we have questions about the tathagatagarbha. You know the difference between truth itself and tathagatagarbha. You know the difference between? Do you have a question?
Question: I was thinking, not tathagatagarbha, but I think the truth as phenomenal world, ... dualistic ... is not samsara...
Katagiri Roshi: Yeah, it’s not dualistic. So, I have to explain the next, the so-called harmony. Harmony and peace. In this book [...] on page 36 it says, “diffuses harmoniously with birth and death.” So I asked you the other day the meaning of “diffusing harmoniously.” So that originally, in the original text, it used the word peace, or harmony. But this translation says like this. So I have to explain that peace [and harmony], okay? Are there any question?
Question: I still don’t understand how the samsaric world comes from the absolute truth...
Katagiri Roshi: Maintains itself, and also omnipresent. Omnipresent is everywhere. That is maintains constantly. Okay?
Question: Can you say the samsaric world [unintelligible]...
Katagiri Roshi: No. Does not.
Same person: Then where does it come from?
Katagiri Roshi: That’s why we want to know what is the subject which samsara is produced. That is “what is the subject.” That subject is the [...] tathagatagarbha.
Same person: [Unintelligible.]
Katagiri Roshi: Not “come from”. [He laughs.] But if you say so, it comes from, yes. Tathagatagarbha.
So why do you, I explained, why do we use tathagatagarbha? What is the Buddhist attitude? Do you understand this one? You always question, somebody created this one, or this one comes from this somebody. This is [very delusive], alright? This is very philosophical. So if you research something, you never understand [...] Because that is your discriminating mind. [...] no, you don’t understand. But you should pay careful attention to something more than that. What is it? What do you have to pay attention to?
Question: [Unintelligible.]
Katagiri Roshi: No, that is another subject. I am talking about, in order to understand the human world in the relation between the samsara and truth, what kind of attitude you should take toward human life. You should investigate how? I told you...
Same person: ... manifestation ...
Katagiri Roshi: It’s [not] where tathagatagarbha comes up. How, why, the tathagatagarbha comes up. The tathagatagarbha is created through the Buddhistic attitude towards human life, which is quite different from the usual philosophy. Do you understand? I told you, anyway, a few minutes ago... [Some laughter.]
Question: [Unintelligible.]
Katagiri Roshi: Yes, yes, there is. Structurally, that’s true.
Question: [Unintelligible.]
Katagiri Roshi: Yes, that’s pretty close. Yes.
So that is the practice, actual practice. You have to do it.
Question: [Unintelligible.]
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm.
Question: [Unintelligible.]
Katagiri Roshi: Yeah. What is that?
Question: [Unintelligible.]
Katagiri Roshi: After covered with delusion is where? Yesterday? Tomorrow?
Someone: Right here, right now.
Katagiri Roshi: Right here. Right here means what? I say.
Do you understand what I mean? The reality-as-it-is. Do you understand this one? Reality.
If you want to know who you are in the relation with the truth, do you want to research the process how you come from the truth? This is intellectual, okay?
In other words, I am Katagiri. If you want to investigate, you have to research maybe from where Katagiri comes. So very naturally, you want to research my parents, ancestors and ancestors, again and again. You have to trace back to my ancestors. And then, you believe, yes, Katagiri comes from Katagiri’s ancestors. Something like this. But, do you believe it hits to understanding of Katagiri who is alive now? [He chuckles.] That is total understanding of Katagiri who is alive now? Of course, it is a part of understanding of Katagiri, but it is not total.
So, how do you research?
Someone: exerience...
Katagiri Roshi: Sure, .... and then you have to accept this one as it is. In reality, before you investigate, analyze, from where [...], what kind of character he has... That question comes up later. Do you understand? Because unconsciously or consciously, you accept someone as he is.
Someone: I don’t understand then why we concern ourselves to [...] the truth, [...]. In other words, if I
culminating of learning....
Katagiri Roshi: Because there is quite a different situation comes up according to whether you realize the truth or not, even though truth is always with us. If you don’t realize... Let’s see the two persons. This person realizes the truth, this person doesn’t realize.
Someone: [What do you mean by] realizing the truth?
Katagiri Roshi: Realizing, get a taste of.
Someone: [Not philsophical understanding...]
Someone: No, philosophical understand comes up later. After. After, you can accept, you can digest, and ... Realization is to digest, you know, understand the idea of the truth. Philosophically, psychologically... and then it becomes energy. At that time it is called realized. Okay? Do you understand? That is realization.
Someone: (inaudible)
Katagiri Roshi: Yes, concrete.
Someone: (inaudible)
Katagiri Roshi: Yes.
Someone: (inaudible)
Katagiri Roshi: As a principle, that is the absolute itself. It is the principal. So, far from us. So that is very metaphysical and philosophical.
Someone: (inaudible)
Katagiri Roshi: Yes. That’s why That’s why that absolute doesn’t create something in the samsaric world, because it is [...] But the absolute is something omnipresent. You understand? Omnipresent means everywhere. So that’s why we can see that truth. That truth is not abstract. It is very concrete. Do you understand? That fact, it is called tathagatagarbha.
Someone: (inaudible) ground of all beings, is that the same as the notion of tathagatagarbha?
Katagiri Roshi: Yes, [of course,] but I don’t know exactly the traditional idea of God in Christianity. So, the Buddhism is not investigating, analyzing the truth itself.
Someone: (inaudible)
Katagiri Roshi: Yes, because our lives are completely embraced by the truth. So, totally accept.
And then if you totally accept, you have to at yourself in reality as it is, exactly. So that is first step, to know.
Someone: (inaudible)
the manifestation in the concrete world. For example like flowers, water, the wood pattern, and that that is the tathagatagarbha
Katagiri Roshi: It is.
Someone: ... but that is absolute truth manifesting in the concrete world.
Katagiri Roshi: Yes. That is called tathagatagarbha.
But absolute truth is manifested in the concrete aspect. Concrete aspect means, in this case, veiled with delusion, it says here. Delusion means discriminating mind.
Someone: So in a way, one should ... go beyond ...
Katagiri Roshi: Sure. If you find the truth in your life, manifested in various aspects, and then you should find the truth, but you should go beyond. Because you have to go beyond that truth you have found in the [truth] ...
[Tape change.]
... difficult to explain, that’s why we use words simply. That is the truth, so-called, or one mind, one world. Simple words. But it is, if you understand the truth expressed in the words simply, simple as you can, at that time, it is still limited.
So that’s why that truth of using the word in order to explain the absolute truth, then you should go beyond the truth in words.
Someone: Is that why they say, “the spiritual source shines clearly in the light”?
Katagiri Roshi: That’s true.
Someone: [Then] tathagatagarbha is really just kind of a skillful means? Just like a ... It seems to be that, a skillful means for us to ...
Katagiri Roshi: Maybe so. Mm-hmm?
Someone: At the same time, it is also covered with delusions. Tathagatagarbha.
Katagiri Roshi: Because?
Someone: Well, it’s a word, concept.
Katagiri Roshi: And that’s why you should understand why. Because...?
Someone: There is always a gap between the samsaric world and the truth.
Katagiri Roshi: Oh no, I don’t think so. You should listen carefully. [He laughs.]
Tathagatagarbha, I say [...] covered with delusion, okay? (inaudible) Tathagatagarbha is the truth covered with delusion. Alright? But that delusion means what? What do you mean, delusion?
(inaudible)
Katagiri Roshi: Discriminating mind. Delusion is called discriminating mind.
Why do you call it discriminating mind delusion? Why?
(inaudible)
Mm-hmm. Why?
(inaudible)
Why?
(inaudible)
Katagiri Roshi: Actually, what does the discriminating mind?
[...], separated.
If you separate at the subject and object, if you dichotomize the word into two, subject and object, and then, do you believe you can live in peace?
[He laughs.]
Strictly speaking, it’s pretty hard, anyway.
Someone: But you still have to try!
[Laughter.]
Katagiri Roshi: That’s why we need to practice, anyway. Because, constantly discrimination is going, where you cannot create a peaceful and harmonious life, but nevertheless, right in the middle of that discriminating world, we have to create a peaceful life. Because we want. Even though you don’t want, there is the truth. So, very naturally, truth will take you to peaceful world. Anyway, see this world.
So, very naturally, you bump your head against the big pole, sooner or later. Alright?
---- 50:00
So, tathagatagarbha is the truth covered with the delusion. What do you mean? Why? Why do we call it delusion? Concretely speaking, what kind of the truth? How do you find? What is it?
Someone: (inaudible)
Katagiri Roshi: Yeah! Personal.
Personal means, if you see the truth in the personal life, that truth is real truth?
Someone: [Personal.]
Katagiri Roshi: It’s personal. If the truth is personal, it is not universal. So that is the limit of understanding of the truth.
But usually we always believe the truth you have understood, or you have experienced. Do you understand? That’s where we create trouble, always. Because if there are ten people who understand the different way. Not the same, at all. So, very naturally, ten different kinds of the universe and truth comes out. Then they fight. Alright?
Someone: Hojo-san, you said the Buddhist attitude towards life is created in tathagatagarbha. Did you mean that the Buddhist attitude toward life creates the concept of tathagatagarbha?
Katagiri Roshi: No, no, no, not create. The tathagatagarbha is the coming... not coming, you know... very naturally comes into existence from the attitude towards human life, in the Buddhistic way. Very naturally, because Buddhists speak up. I always focus on the person or thing in reality as it is, instead of researching the process: how to create it, from where it comes, et cetera. Do you understand?
So, always focus on this. Our one person or one thing in reality as it is. If so, how many things can be found in this one thing, one person? Can you judge this or that person exactly according to the one-sided idea? So-called truth, pure or not pure? Can you?
Someone: You can...
Katagiri Roshi: You can’t.
Someone: You can, but it’s not...
Katagiri Roshi: Well, even though you can judge, hey, Katagiri is good boy, but I don’t think it’s good boy. Dont you think so? On the other hand, you cannot say either he is bad boy. Because this is the panoramic picture of reality, the panoramic picture of the person or thing in reality as it is. Do you understand that one? If you see the person or thing in reality as it is, very naturally you can see. Okay?
Why there are two things always interacting and etc. You know? But, this is because this is already samsaric world. Samsaric world always, you know, the two things here. Good or bad, self-confidence or not self-confidence. Et cetera. Okay? But you cannot always try to take care of your life with always self-confidence. Because, if you really want to have your life with self-confidence always, you should find a little bit easier circumstances, [so] you can get the self-confidence. But the circumstances are always moving and changing, and favorable conditions or unfavorable conditions, always. Nevertheless, whatever you may be, under unfavorable conditions, you have to learn the self-confidence which you have to stand up straight there. That is called samsaric world. That’s why you have to learn both: self-confidence and difficult to get the self-confidence. You have to learn the both. Both are important. But usually we believe only self-confidence is important. If you don’t have the self-confidence, it’s bad. That means you destroy the samsara. Do you understand? Samsara is always self-confidence, simultaneously not self-confidence. That is the samsara. But this samsara world is grounded on tathagatagarbha, means the truth. That’s why self-confidence or not self-confidence, both are important. That’s why through not-self-confidence you can learn how important self-confidence is for you.
So under all circumstances, we have to learn how to stand up straight with self-confidence. Do you understand that one? That is the tathagatagarbha, anyway. [He chuckles.] Tathagatagarbha is not only ideas, but also it’s pretty deep meaning. Practically you should do it. Because in the samsara, human beings always have one-sided ideas. That’s why Buddha also always give [pieces of advice] for us. Don’t be stuck in one-sided ideas. So we have to learn both.
... One more question?
Someone: The truth is manifesting itself in the phenomenal world. And then it seems to me that the phenomenal world is resting on the truth. And that if somehow truth were snatched away, the phenomenal world would collapse.
Katagiri Roshi: [What’s the point]? [He laughs.]
Someone: That if truth were taken away, that the samsaric world would collapse.
Katagiri Roshi: [I don’t know. I don’t think so.] Truth, and samsara rests in the truth?
Someone: Well, the samsaric world is resting on the truth.
Katagiri Roshi: I don’t think this is... In [words], it’s pretty difficult to say, that’s why next I have to explain [peace]. In this book, it says, “Absolute truth and samsaric world diffuse harmoniously with each other.” This is, I have to explain a little more. Okay? It’s not that the samsara is the top and absolute is the bottom. [He laughs.] I don’t think so.
Okay? Is that alright? [Laughter.] [He laughs.]
That means that one piece of paper [with] two aspects. It’s moving constantly, alright? So you cannot say which is top, which is bottom.
So only practically speaking, if you put the blue sunglasses [on], the whole world becomes blue. Next moment, when you change the sunglasses to brown, immediately the whole world becomes brown. That’s it. Alright?
So where do you stand up? Where do you stand up? When you stand up in the samsara, the whole world becomes samsara. When you stand up in the absolute, and then looking at the human world, the whole world becomes absolute.
In other words, if you are angry, if you are mad at somebody, the whole world is mad. [He laughs.] If you see the human world with disoriented mind, the whole world is disoriented. Do you understand?
That is so-called peace and harmony, coming in, interacting together. You cannot say which is top, which is bottom. When you show the front, that’s it: whole world is front. When you show the back, whole world is back. That is, Dogen Zenji says, when one side appears, the other side is darkness.
So next time I can explain that, a little more about this to you. Okay.