NOTES

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Note 4.0                               DND                            27 replies
ACE::BREWER                                          13 lines  21-MAY-1984 19:57
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        As a recreational game player I am glad to see this file. I mourn
the day when DND was stripped from the net. (As an orb-finder I was
about to attempt the other dungeons).

        Perhaps it would be wise for some of the games to change names before a
similar occurance happens on other games. Although Startrek and Qix games
on the net dont impact sales of their parent replicas, Id hate to see
someone take action against DEC causing these and others with proprietary
names vanish.

        Is there a computer in existance that has not had a STARTREK game on it?

        -John

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Note 4.1                               DND                               1 of 27
AURORA::HALLYB                                        4 lines  23-MAY-1984 10:06
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By teh way, is there an orb in every dungeon, or do you have to pick the
right one?...

            John

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Note 4.2                               DND                               2 of 27
PSYCHE::MCVAY                                        30 lines  25-MAY-1984 12:28
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 Perhaps a general comment about the legal aspects of games and copyrights
is pertinent here...

 If you have access to the latest issue of ACM (June 1984), you will see
a big discussion on copyrights.  This includes games and a lot of other
software.  However, this article seems to confirm one of my own thoughts
on the subject.  That is: the games currently available, including DND,
are valid public domain because they were never copyrighted nor protected
properly.

 I'm basing this claim on the ruling of courts concerning "trade secrets".
A trade secret is anything that gives you a competitive advantage over
the competition, such as an idea or algorithm or particular way of doing
things.  As this applies to computers, game ideas would be trade secrets
because they are ideas--and what is being argued here is not the code
itelf, but rather the appearance and general flavor of the game on the
computer.

 Here's the zinger: violations of trade secrets are prosecutable offenses
ONLY if you can prove that you took all reasonable precautions to protect
the secret.  Since the games are/were widely available on the net, there
would be a tough time here proving proprietary rights--particularly when
so many of the users and system managers had them on their machines
without being informed of any possible copyright infringements.

 However, I'm not a lawyer.  At the very least, DEC could get into a
nasty battle, possibly with a vendor/OEM.  But I am curious about what
the legal status is, here.  It strikes me that someone overreacted.

 Moral: look to your own software protection...

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Note 4.3                               DND                               3 of 27
HUMAN::BURROWS                                       49 lines  25-MAY-1984 23:14
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Ghod, but I hate writing this. What Pete says about trade secrets may in
fact be true but that doesn't help in the case of DND/DECquest.

Standard disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer, and am not dispensing legal advice.

The problem with DND is three-fold in origin. It's practically a catalogue
of the standard mistakes.

First, several versions of the game abused the "Dungeons and Dragons"
trademark of TSR inc. Several of us who worked on the sources at one time
or another cleaned it up, but as new hackers joined the fray, it cropped
up again. [Lesson: don't put trademarks into your games.] Beyond the direct
abuse it might be argued that it is too close to the ideas and rules of
D&D;, but I suspect that it is enough different to be safe.

Second, all versions up to a week before it was killed (it is dead isn't
it?) abused Avalon Hill's trademark Telengard, but that started before
Telengard was registered, so who knows, that might even be OK.
(Unfortunately, you'd probably have to go to court to determine it though,
and that could be expensive.)

Finally, the way it came into the company was not clean. Some
non-employees, one of whom has since joined the company installed it on a
DEC machine while visiting a friend/brother who was an employee. After
they did that, they asked if the sources could be kept out of circulation,
as they had hopes of selling it and didn't want it to go into the public
domain. None of the DEC employees present said no to this request. They
thereby entered into an oral non-disclosure agreement on the behalf of
DEC, or at least that's how the courts might interpret it. Now, to my
knowledge everyone lived up to that agreement fairly well and in fact the
Pascal version was developed almost independently from the original, and
lots of changes have occurred. The original author has sold a descendant
of the original game to AH. We ought to be safe, so long as we don't
make commercial use of the game. (Or come to an agreement with AH before
doing so. One CT manager was interested in doing that.)

Unfortunately, the legality of our position and behavior can not be determined
without going to court. This would be expensive. DEC wouldn't feel kindly
towards any employee who caused them to go to that expense over a game.
What makes it real tough is the oral nature of the agreement. Because of
this the details and requirements of the agreement can only be determined
by a judge. As a side point, although a non-disclosure agreement can be
enter into by any employee on the behalf of DEC, DEC policy reserves the
right to do this to officers of the corporation. Arrogating the right to
make such an agreement is I believe a firing offense. [Lesson, be real
careful to only bring in games that are truly in the public domain.]

Bottom line which I have from a DEC attorney: DND is too risky to allow
to exist on DEC equipment. Under NO circumstances may commercial use be
made of it (such as distributing it on a kit or using it as a demo program
for potential customers, as well as selling it outright).

Sorry about all this, but at least you had it around for 6 or 7 years.

JimB.

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Note 4.4                               DND                               4 of 27
HUMAN::BURROWS                                       19 lines  25-MAY-1984 23:25
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As to the number of orbs ther were in the game, that depends on the version
of the program and the data file. The BASIC version had between 3 and 5
dungeons depending on the specific version of the data file. Of the original
3 dungeons, rwo had orbs and one, the one whose bottom two levels were junk
did not. Someone fixed this by creating a new 19th and 20th levels. I believe
later the original author of that dungeon supplied the original 19th and 20th
levels and also returned the orb (in a different place). If memory serves,
the data files can be told apart by whether there is a secret door facing the
entrance to Telengard. The fourth dugeon, the Warren hasn't got an orb as
it was never finished. The fifth dungeon is someone else's diverged version
of the Warren and actually appears as dungeon number 4. If both Warrens are
in the same file, the real warren is 5th and the 20-level warren is 4th.
In the Pascal version, I believe the version corrected by the original author,
and the original Warren appear, but not the divergent Warren. In the last
version of the game, created just before the game was killed, Telengard was
removed leaving Svhenk's Lair, Lamorte, and the Warren as the only three
dungeons, with two orbs amongst them.

Hope this helps the historians among you.

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Note 4.5                               DND                               5 of 27
RAINBW::STRATTON                                      6 lines  18-JUN-1984 23:15
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I don't understand the references to DND being ``killed''.  It sounds as
though there were some corporate edict that I somehow missed.  Do those
who tried to ``kill'' it really think that no systems have DND anymore?
Last I looked, it was on RAINBW - not to mention on several backup tapes...

Jim Stratton

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Note 4.6                               DND                               6 of 27
HUMAN::BURROWS                                        6 lines  21-JUN-1984 12:11
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Yes, there was such an edict. No, I don't think it is believed to be totally
gone. That would be unrealistic. If you know of any systems that it is
on, it would be well to remove it in accordance with the "edict", especially
if you've said in black and white that you know where it is.

JimB

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Note 4.7                               DND                               7 of 27
VLNVAX::MERRILL                                       4 lines  23-JUL-1984 17:39
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I just love an edict that is never seen.  If someone could please post
a copy for historical reasons, then it could be seen that DEC made a
concerted effort to avoid any copyright infringements.  I personally
believe that this is more the stated rationale than the reason.

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Note 4.8                               DND                               8 of 27
STK02::SKORDBY                                        8 lines  26-JUL-1984 15:06
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How about the PC300 version ? Is that one also supposed to be 'killed' ?
That version is distributed on diskettes which makes it almost impossible
to get rid of. We haven't got DND on our VAX anylonger but I've been playing
it on my Professional ....

          Bosse (Stockholm)

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Note 4.9                               DND                               9 of 27
HUMAN::BURROWS                                       33 lines  26-JUL-1984 22:07
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RE: .7

 <flame on>

I'm really getting tired of uniformed, self-appointed experts putting forth
their opinions as to the "real" legal situation, the "real" motives of
the legal department or management in declaring that this game is to be
removed, or my "real" motives in involving legal in the whole thing. If
you don't KNOW other peoples motives it is impolite to ascribe them publicly
based on your own speculations. If you are not a lawyer, it is decidedly
unwise to publicly dispense legal advice. If you don't know the reasons
for official decisions made either by upper management or by the legal
department is not one of the better moves to publicly denigrate them.

<flame off, more or less>

The "edict" is hardly something that no-one has seen. I have personally
mailed it to several dozen people, and discussed the nature of it, as well
as how and why it was arrived at, and by whom in both Desperado and this
file. I have been forwarded copies of my original memo that have been forwarded
over 25 times. Go back and read response .3.

For the historical record I will post a copy of the original as the next
response to this note.

RE: .8

Yes that's the version. As per note 4.3, and the one following this, it must
not be used commercially, nor is it to be allowed to exist on DEC owned
equipment. Having stated in a written form that you have it, you should be
particularly careful to get rid of it and to establish that you have.

JimB.

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Note 4.10                              DND                              10 of 27
HUMAN::BURROWS                                       53 lines  26-JUL-1984 22:16
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With apologies to all of you who have seen this over and over again, I
present the original not about the purging of DND/DEMO/DECdungeon

JimB.

From: BURROWS "Jim Burrows"     Date: 23-Sep-83 07:26 PM
To: BURROWS ! From list -> _SY:[230,216]DND.DIS
Subject: DND/DEMO program

To: @DND.DIS:

     This afternoon I had a conversation with Jerry Lester of DEC's legal
department about the history of the DND.BAS/DND.B2S/DND.PAS/DEMO.PAS programs.
After I described the origins of the game, and its indirect relationship to
the Avalon Hill Telengard (TM) game, he told me what DEC's legal position in
the matter has to be.

     1) The program(s) MUST NOT, under any circumstance, BECOME a part
        of any of DEC or DECUS commercial offerings.

     2) In fact, ALL COPIES of BOTH VERSIONS of the program must BE
        DESTROYED. The game must be REMOVED from ALL DEC COMPUTERS.

     3) No further connections between DEC or DEC employees and Dan
        Lawrence's "dungeoning" game should exist.

     I got the very strong impression that if Jerry had found out about
DND from any source other than one of the people involved, he would be
taking strong official actions to effect all of the above. Further, we
can be sure that if after a reasonably short period of time, it comes
to Jerry's (or anyone else in legal, or any of a number of upper management)
attention that there are still copies of the game around, some significant
official action will have to be taken.

     Therefore, please go cooperate in getting rid of DND as quickly
and as effectively as possible. Get rid of any copies you have, and pass
on the information that this needs to be done to everyone you know who
has a copy. Further, if you are aware of any copies that might have made
their way out of the company, please inform me or Jerry Lester.

     DND is a great game, but we just can't afford to have it around
given its questionable history and relationship to other companies'
products. Look at this as an opportunity to motivate others or yourself
to develop a new, better role-playing/adventure game that has no
relationship to other commercial games. We've needed a new game for a
couple of years.

     If you have any questions please call me.

     (Oh, and as an aside, don't accept games from non-DEC employees
unless they can a do give you unconditional access to it, so that DEC's
interests, claims, and responsibilities have no chance of overlapping or
interfering with those of other companies.)

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Note 4.11                              DND                              11 of 27
RDGE00::SHERWOOD                                      6 lines   4-DEC-1984 15:23
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Having just joined the company, and read all the previous notes
could anyone tell me if the Vax based program DUNGEONS.EXE is
the one that comes under this ban?

        And if so does ADVENTURE.EXE ?

Gary

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Note 4.12                              DND                              12 of 27
SERPNT::GULDENSCHUH                                   2 lines   4-DEC-1984 15:48
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Adventure, does not.

Dungeon, doesn't if it's the version with lots of text.

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Note 4.13                              DND                              13 of 27
DRAGON::KALOGER                                       7 lines   6-DEC-1984 15:59
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Gee, I wonder if the edict applies to a version called "Roosters
and Roasters", derived from the original but with the copyrights
("DND" named stuff) munged.  Probably not good to let it get out
of the henhouse.  But it was fun a few years back when the
original got boring.  Instead of Undead, there were Precooked.
All sorts of poultry ran around attacking you; the character
classes were Farmer, Cook, and Magic Chef.

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Note 4.14                              DND                              14 of 27
SYBIL::BURROWS                                        4 lines   7-DEC-1984 11:37
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Boy, I wished I'd seen that one! Sounds like fun.

You're right though. It should now be kept in the henhouse.

JimB.

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Note 4.15                              DND                              15 of 27
PERCH::ANDY_LESLIE                                     1 line   9-DEC-1984 09:23
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sounds foul (fowl) to me...

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Note 4.16                              DND                              16 of 27
COGITO::DURSO                                         0 lines  21-JAN-1985 12:59
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Note 4.17                              DND                              17 of 27
GRAFIX::BURROWS                                       8 lines   8-AUG-1985 17:42
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FYI - there's an allegedly "public domain" version of DND running around on
some external bulletin boards. It runs on rainbows and the like. I've looked at
it and it is every bit as bad as the version in house. In fact it's a little
worse. It like every other DND mustn't be on DEC-owned equipment.

Sorry, 'bout that. I thought it might make matters better. It didn't.

JimB.

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Note 4.18                              DND                              18 of 27
CHEERS::CREAN                                        20 lines  29-AUG-1986 16:24
                                 -< origions >-
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    I have seen the source code of the basic version with only the origonal
    tellengard dungeon.  It lists the auther ( or someone stealing creadit
    and has a date around 1979 ) didn't the origonal version come out
    of a university and some one took all the creadit for a group of
    people.  In the versoin I've played There are only twenty types
    of monsters and the random monsters, bottomless pits on the twentieth
    level only, and a few secret doors.  I've heard of other versions
    that contain two other dungeons as well ( shcenk's lair?, and sphinx).
    in this vesion some things are added, thrones and the transporter
    doesn't work if you have the ORB, very depresing for someone who
    doesn't know where all the stairs are.

    Question:  If versions vary and the origonal auther is unknown how
    can AH aquire the rights to the game, and why hasn't TSR tried to
    pull a fast-one since the name DND is used and AH is a competitor
    of theirs.

                     ed.

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Note 4.19                              DND                              19 of 27
HUMAN::BURROWS "Jim Burrows"                         47 lines   2-SEP-1986 21:55
                   -< Sorry, that isn't the way it happened >-
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        So far as I am aware the authors of DND are quite well known.
        Dan Lawrence is the one who did most of the original code, the
        Telengard dungeon and the Telengard game (which is a descendant
        of DND) sold to AH. Svhenk's Lair and Lamorte were done by Dan's
        school-mates, one of whom was involved in the original selling
        of the game (to a company which defaulted on its contract) and
        is now a DEC employee. (He can identify himself here if he so
        chooses.)

        The versions here at DEC added a new dungeon--the Warren--and a
        new algorythm for combat, and then reimplimented it in Pascal
        (largely without access to the original sources). In the Pascal
        version we added all sorts of nifty new things.

        TSR hasn't gotten involved with AH's Telengard because there is
        no direct tie between Telngard (tm) and D&D; (tm). There is no
        reference to DND in Telengard. There is a reference to Telengard
        in DND, and the name of DND is very reminiscent of D&D;, so TSR
        and AH could conceivably have some sort of legal handle on DND.

        Somehow someone got a copy of the Pascal version without either
        the permission of the authors of that version, or so far as I
        know with the authors of the original software and was providing
        it as "pay as you go software" if you like it you send them
        money for it. Pretty neat since they didn't write the code. I
        know, I wrote large sections of the Pascal version, which was
        done solely by DECkies.

        This version is a blatant rip-off of the Pascal version. If Dan
        Lawrence or AH have any claim on the Pascal version (which only
        a court can determine), then it is also a rip-off of them. The
        version I saw had the word Telengard, and if memory serves some
        form of "Dungeons and Dragons" in it. It thus abuses two
        company's trademarks for commercial purposes.

        Only this last "public domain" (for so it has been called at
        times) version has as obscure a history as you have heard of.
        It's status isn't in question. It's a blatant unethical rip-off,
        the only question is who's been ripped off.

        Sorry, but this game just can't be permitted on DEC equipment.
        That's the decision of the Legal department. It is, I'm afraid
        warranted by the actual history of the program, and can only be
        changed by a legal battle or an N-way agreement amongst the
        involved parties. DEC just isn't willing to go to that expense.

        JimB.

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Note 4.20                              DND                              20 of 27
TOMCAT::LIZOTTE                                      10 lines   8-APR-1987 14:32
                                   -< MAPS >-
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    I DONT KNOW ABOUT ANYONE ELSE BUT
    MOST OF THE MAPS IVE SEEN THAT LEAD YOU TO THE ORB
    ARE WRONG
    DOES THE ORB MOVE AROUND OR SOMTHING
    IF IT DOES , DOES IT CHANGE LEVELS??????/

                       JEFF

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Note 4.21                              DND                              21 of 27
HUMAN::BURROWS "Jim Burrows"                          6 lines   8-APR-1987 22:32
                           -< Moot question, right? >-
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        You, of course, are asking for historical purposes, right?

        As my earlier notes make clear, DND must not be run on any
        DEC-owned equipment, nor shown to customers, nor...

        JimB.

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Note 4.22                              DND                              22 of 27
ASGNQH::CREAN                                        13 lines   2-JUL-1987 03:27
                           -< for history purposes >-
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    Assuming that you've read 4.21 above.
    The location of where the orb is is determined by the datafile.
    If someone has altered it then the orb might be in a difrent location.
    The data is loaded into a 10x10 array.  each element contains the
    information for two rooms.  wheather the north and west sides of
    a space contain a wall, door, secret door or if the room contains
    an alter, fountain, pit, or the orb.  Just look at the functions
    in the source of DNDDGN.BAS to figure out how to do it and look
    at the data for the bottom floor in the data file to see where it
    is in your version.

                            Ed.

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Note 4.23                              DND                              23 of 27
REGENT::DITTMER                                      16 lines  14-SEP-1987 17:45
                              -< LONGING FOR DND >-
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    I'd say you "legal beagles" are overreacting a bit. If someone is
    playing the banned game of DND on their PRO or Rainbow, how could
    the originator ever find out -- or really care if they did?

    Anyway, I used to have the (now banned) version of DND on my PRO
    at home. I accidentally deleted it -- much to my son's distress.
    He is a DND addict, and loved it. He says the current version of
    Dungeons now available on the network isn't nearly as good. If
    ANYONE has a copy of the (now banned) DND that will run on a PRO 350,
    please contact me directly.

    If you know of a version that can be purchased for the PRO, that
    would be fine also.

    Thanks,

    -Gene

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Note 4.24                              DND                              24 of 27
LINCON::WOODBURY "Max T.E."                           7 lines  15-SEP-1987 11:17
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Re .23:

        From what I have heard, the originator is concerned about loss of
sales, and has indicated that they would sue DEC if they find that they have
lost sales.  If they do sue DEC it will be because someone (you) have broken
the rules.  DEC will then have very good grounds for terminating that
someone.  Do you really want to risk your job for some game?

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Note 4.25                              DND                              25 of 27
STAR::BOUCHARD "I have nothing to say"                9 lines  22-SEP-1987 20:18
                                 -< Telengard >-
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    re: .23

    Did you check if Telengard (Avalon Hill?) comes in a version which
    will run on the pro?  It's essentially the same game, and the author
    will get his royalty just like he should...

            Rich

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              <<< 501CLB::EIS4$DISK:[NOTES$LIBRARY]GAMES.NOTE;1 >>>
                             -< Welcome to GAMES >-
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Note 118.0                 DND,DGN,DCLNDR WORK ON 380                 11 replies
CURIUM::FMUCCI                                       12 lines  14-MAR-1985 12:38
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Hello,
      My name is Phil Mucci and I'm having trouble with DND,DUNGEON
and DECLANDER on my 380.Does anybody out there in the gaming world know
of a source that has DND with all the help files ie:spells,transportation
and that doesn't give me a stupid,~!@#$%^&~!@#$%^&* PASCAL error code while
running the help files.Also this version should have a AUTOINSTALL file so
I don't have to use PFT.I'm also having the same proble with DUNGEON and
DECLANDER.

        Please help,I'm desperate to kill a dragon,

               Phil Mucci

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Note 118.1                 DND,DGN,DCLNDR WORK ON 380                    1 of 11
TRIVIA::BURROWS                                       7 lines  14-MAR-1985 17:34
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Please see note #4.3 for the reasons why DND must be removed from all DEC-owned
equipment. More than IT MUST NOT BE USED FOR COMMERCIAL PURPOSES, and giving
it to a customer or potential customer is a commercial use.

Sorry to rain on your parade.

JimB.

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Note 118.2                 DND,DGN,DCLNDR WORK ON 380                    2 of 11
QUOIN::BEVERIDGE                                      6 lines  14-MAR-1985 17:50
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I suspect that this topic has been beat to death already, but...

Would it become "legal" if someone were to recompile DND and change all
references to copyrighted names to something else?

Just curious,    Jim

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Note 118.3                 DND,DGN,DCLNDR WORK ON 380                    3 of 11
CURIUM::FMUCCI                                        3 lines  14-MAR-1985 19:23
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        Well how 'bout DECLANDER AND DUNGEON,

             Phil

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Note 118.4                 DND,DGN,DCLNDR WORK ON 380                    4 of 11
EDSVAX::CRESSEY                                      20 lines  15-MAR-1985 15:42
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    Re .-2:

    Not sure how you meant 'legal'....

    The courts have, in numerous instances, ruled that one text is
    'derived' from another text by simple substituion of names (or
    even of concepts), and therefore possibly an infringement just as
    though it were a copy.

    There have been cases of computer programs that were shown to be
    'conversions' of copyrighted material, which infringed on the
    copyright, and not 'indepentent developments of a similar expression
    of an algorithm' which might not have infringed.  In some of these
    cases the infringing program was not even in the same programming
    language as the original!

    (I am not a lawyer, so do your own legal research to find the
    precedents)

    Dave

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Note 118.5                 DND,DGN,DCLNDR WORK ON 380                    5 of 11
GRDIAN::COUTU                                        21 lines  15-MAR-1985 18:35
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I'd like to point out (just to add fat to the fire :-)) that the game
ROGUE is now on the market. For those of you who have never heard of it,
it was created on a UN*X system at UC Berkeley and is a DND type of game.
In fact, the original version had monsters straight out of TSR's Monster
Manual (for Advanced Dungeons and Dragons). In order to sell the game
as a product they had to change the names of all monsters that were not
commonly known mythical beasts. That is, the names that TSR could claim
copyright on, were changed. I tend to think that a maze game centering
around an adventurer is no problem. But get rid of all references to
other games that could be perceived as copyright infringements.

Of course, this is my opinion, and if I feel like creating a program
for my own use I'll make it any way I please. But I'd like to see some
constructive legal advice as to how we can 'remake' the old DND game. It
was a very good playing game, well structured, etc. There must be a way
to perform plastic surgery on it so that even it's own mother won't know
it! :-)

Dan

# TSR is a trademark of TSR, and AD&D; is too.

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Note 118.6                 DND,DGN,DCLNDR WORK ON 380                    6 of 11
CURIUM::FMUCCI                                        6 lines  16-MAR-1985 16:57
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        I need answers !

        What about DECLANDER,DECIPEDE,DECMAN AND DUNGEON??????????????????

           Phil

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Note 118.7                 DND,DGN,DCLNDR WORK ON 380                    7 of 11
GRDIAN::COUTU                                        11 lines  18-MAR-1985 10:53
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If the 'regular' PRO versions don't work on your 380, then all I can
suggest is that you try to track down who in the PRO group holds the
sources to these games, node EVE is probably the best starting point,
although I don't know of any names of particular persons to contact.
Note that if a program uses the graphics capablities of the PRO (In
particular the EBO board) then the source will have to be modified
in order to run on a 380 due to differences in the graphics hardware
addresses (or something to that effect). BTW, you do know of the
net kits on EVE don't you?

Dan

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Note 118.8                 DND,DGN,DCLNDR WORK ON 380                    8 of 11
TRIVIA::BURROWS                                      23 lines  18-MAR-1985 18:29
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First, please read all of the discussion in note 4.*.

Second, I have contacted an attorney. DND is not legal, nor can it be made
legal without either going to court or having legal documents drawn up.

Period.

Third, statements of the sort "There must be a way to perform plastic surgery
on it so that even it's own mother won't know it!" are way off base. Disguising
the program will not make it kosher. It may reduce the chances of getting
caught, but it will not make it kosher.

Regarding the statement that "if I feel like creating a program for my own use
I'll make it any way I please," please do not do so on company time or company
equipment. Make absolutely certain you don't make commercial use of it. Be
warned that giving it free to someone you or the company you work for does
business with may be considered commercial use.

Finally, the bottom line. The official stand of the DEC legal department is
that DND (DECquest, DECdungeon, DEMO, or any other name it might have) must be
removed from all DEC-owned equipment. You may quote me, or call Gerry Lester
for confirmation.

JimB.

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Note 118.9                 DND,DGN,DCLNDR WORK ON 380                    9 of 11
TRIVIA::BURROWS                                       4 lines  18-MAR-1985 18:32
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I know nothing about DECLander. I have heard rumors that DECipede and DECman
may be frowned on. I believe the Dungeon is OK.

JimB.

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Note 118.10                DND,DGN,DCLNDR WORK ON 380                   10 of 11
MILOS::BECK                                           5 lines  18-MAR-1985 18:45
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I know the person that wrote Dungeon, and he had permission from the original
authors at MIT. It's available through DECUS. DEClander was shipped with
the Applications Starter Kit for the PRO/350, so there are no legal problems
with it. To my knowledge, it's the only game around with official DEC
documentation.

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Note 118.11                DND,DGN,DCLNDR WORK ON 380                   11 of 11
MKT782::FMUCCI                                        4 lines  26-MAR-1985 17:21
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for the info guys.

          Any more help is appriciated.

Thanks

        phil

================================================================================
              <<< 501CLB::EIS4$DISK:[NOTES$LIBRARY]GAMES.NOTE;1 >>>
                             -< Welcome to GAMES >-
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Note 194.0                 DND working on the Rainbow                  7 replies
QUOIN::BEVERIDGE                                     16 lines  10-AUG-1985 11:28
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I have written a program called DNDFIX that will allow DND to run 95%
perfectly on the Rainbow.  This program runs standalone, it makes no
modifications to DND and so will not violate the so called license that
is included with it.  It is available on:

        QUOIN::SYS$USER:[BEVERIDGE.PUBLIC]DNDFIX.*

DND is available off of various FIDO Nodes, as mentioned elsewhere in this
file.  It is not to be mounted on the Easynet, as it is fairly close to
the original DND that ran on the VAX.  Those of you who have played before
will find the new version ridiculously easy - I had five items that were
plus five before going beyond level two, and that is not even mentioning
the level one Balrogs (level ONE?!?!) that one encounters every so often.

        May the nameless god be kind to you,

          Jim

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Note 194.1                 DND working on the Rainbow                     1 of 7
HUMAN::BURROWS                                       12 lines  11-AUG-1985 00:32
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Please remember that you MUST not have this game on any DEC-owned equipment.

As a personal favor I would also ask that you not send them the requested $25.
They are profiting from my code. I wrote a good fraction of what they are
"licensing".

Finally, please don't do anything to draw attention to this version.

Thank you,

JimB.

PS. I'm glad you liked the Nameless God.

================================================================================
Note 194.2                 DND working on the Rainbow                     2 of 7
MARRHQ::WICKERT                                       7 lines  11-AUG-1985 19:37
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Could you post on which BBSs this version can be found? I've tried several
but with no luck...

Thanks,

Ray

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Note 194.3                 DND working on the Rainbow                     3 of 7
HUMAN::BURROWS                                        6 lines  12-AUG-1985 00:50
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Aw, come on guys.... I really don't believe in making personal judgments
about other noters, but...

Could we have a modicum of discretion, good judgment or plain common sense?

JimB.

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Note 194.4                 DND working on the Rainbow                     4 of 7
ELMO::LEIGH                                           2 lines  12-AUG-1985 01:39
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MAIL works much better...

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Note 194.5                 DND working on the Rainbow                     5 of 7
MARRHQ::WICKERT                                      13 lines  12-AUG-1985 11:44
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I don't agree at all!

I own my Rainbow, as do many other readers of this notesfile! If the game
is illegal than say so, but if not then there is no reason it can't be mentioned
here.

One reply to a note is a lot easier than 10 mail messages!

I do sympathize with the stolen code and all that but still...

             Ray

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Note 194.6                 DND working on the Rainbow                     6 of 7
HUMAN::BURROWS                                       31 lines  12-AUG-1985 19:26
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RE: .5

I'd have agreed with you a couple of years ago. But my experience with DND on
DEC-machines in the mean-time has lowered my opinion greatly of the judgment of
my fellow DECkies. If you publish the location of this version here, it will
increase the number of copies on DEC-owned machines. People will copy it.
I guarantee it.

Additionally, this program is not illegal, BUT it does have the potential to
cost DEC a good deal in legal expenses at the very least. The more copies there
are of it in the world on DEC-owned machines or on DEC-employee-owned machines,
the greater the probability of triggering the events that will cost the
company money. I therefore suggest that discretion calls for shunning it.

Now this second is not a strong argument, and I admit it. However, this note
file is DEC property and is subpoena-able evidence. Using it to distribute
information about where to get software of questionable legal merit, is a
really bad idea. It involves DEC directly and really ought to be avoided.

If you insist on playing the game on your own machine, as one of the
implementors of the stolen code I feel flattered, and acknowledge that you are
within your rights, but please don't discuss it here in a way that will
encourage others to seek it, and don't distribute it through DEC channels
either directly or indirectly.

I may be obnoxious about this, singing the same song over and over again,
but I'm really a lot nicer than legal has indicated they feel they have
the right to be on this subject. It is really best for all of our careers
to just let the damned thing die. Or get a better game.

JimB.

================================================================================
Note 194.7                 DND working on the Rainbow                     7 of 7
QUOIN::BEVERIDGE                                       1 line  12-AUG-1985 20:20

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DNDFIX has been removed from the network due to the potential legal problems.