Replies: 10 comments 1 reply
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Jeffrey Anderson Sat, Nov 11, 8:58 AM |
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Kevin Raeder Nov 13, 2023, 9:46 AM Yes, this line of thought was sparked by Chen's question. The fields (mostly surface fluxes) in the coupler restart files are generated It seems to me that in the strongly coupled context the model (CESM) This view doesn't hold up in the weakly coupled environment; |
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Dan Amrhein Nov 13, 2023, 1:42 PM So I understand, the idea is that for an ensemble member, the coupler takes two states (e.g. oce/atm) and computes fluxes between them, which are used to update component model states. For typical strongly coupled DA, if we had an ocean obs, we'd usually update oce/atm state. Instead, are you suggesting that we update oce and oce/atm fluxes, and then those fluxes would spread the ob impact to atm? |
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Kevin Raeder Mon, Nov 13, 2:42 PM |
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Dan Amrhein Nov 14, 2023, 10:03 AM The FO motivation is clear. One thing I'm not sure about is the difference you would expect between adjusted fluxes and fluxes computed from an adjusted state. My sense is that strongly coupled DA (at least ocean-atm) hasn't lived up to the hype yet and there's some head-scratching in the community about how to proceed. |
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Kevin Raeder Nov 14, 2023, 11:03 AM
I don't know either, but if the states are not adjusted much because of weak covariances,
Sounds like an opportunity! |
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Jeffrey Anderson Nov 16, 2023, 2:22 PM I will note again that the fluxes themselves are not state in the way we think of things, any more than the intermediate values in the convective parameterization are. The coupled dynamics are just a function of the individual model states. There are slight caveats possible related to the way in which the coupled model is stopped/started (almost another pause/resume complexity) and the way in which the coupling intervals relate to the model timesteps. Does anyone know of obs that they think are closely related to the fluxes? |
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Kevin Raeder Fri, Nov 17, 4:31 PM There are ~40 distinct fields in the 5 forcing files. Many are fluxes, but a large fraction Of those 40 fields, roughly 3/4 are directly or very closely observed in the NEON network. So there seems to be a rich array of observations of the quantities in the forcing files, |
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Not sure I understand all the details of this conversation, but just to add to the flux conversation, the land based flux tower networks of NEON, Fluxnet (Ameriflux) come to mind. I have used them mostly in the context of carbon fluxes but energy fluxes (sensible, latent, irradiance) should be important in this context. There also should be flux reanalyses products available. FLUXCOM is an example of, where the gridded land surface flux product is based on the network of discrete tower-based observations. At least in land DA, assimilating site level observations for regional domains is difficult given the representation mismatch of the observation to the model state. These networks are land based, so not likely to bring utility to ocean-atmosphere coupling. |
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a couple of questions - one about the execution cycle of cesm (which has always been a point of confusion) and one about only updating some of the coupler fields. is it clear exactly when cesm updates the coupler file values, and then when that data is used by the other components? if the coupler data is updated by an assimilation but then recomputed and overwritten during the next iteration of the cesm cycle then the assimilation wouldn't make any difference in the results. if there are scalar quantities as well as vector (flux) quantities in the coupler files, then updating only the scalar fields seems like it would lead to inconsistent results. if you have a point observation and a flux state field, how to you adjust it? wouldn't you need multiple observation values (in time or space) to compute a vector quantity? |
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This topic was sparked by a question from Nuo Chen (Cavallo) about generating synthetic obs
near CESM's surface (below the lowest CAM model level, which is normally an excluded region.
I thought about what CESM quantities might be available for that, and wondered whether the
fields in the coupler history files could be useful.
Jeff's initial thoughts were discouraging (see discussion below), but it's come up in 2 more conversations
in the last few weeks; Karspeck and Long at C-Worthy, and Danny Leung (CGD aerosol source estimation),
so I'm recording the discussion here.
Kevin Nov 10, 2023, 7:52 AM
Hi Jeff and Dan,
are you aware of anyone considering the possibility of using the coupler history file variables ("forcing")
as part of the, or a, model state?
Off hand I don't know whether the atmospheric forcing of the surface is calculated in CAM or in the coupler.
It could be that the coupler would need to be considered a model component and relevant observations assimilated into it.
I would hope that there's a much stronger correlation between these variables (and observations of them)
and the CLM fields than there is between the atmospheric
variables and CLM fields.
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